EPISODE #010
A special 1 hour episode with guest Will Koning, founder of SaaSLeads.io. Learn how Will went back to being an SDR to launch his own SaaS company and the top traits and skill sets needed for success as an SDR.
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EPISODE #010 TRANSCRIPT
TL;DR
+ Introduction (to Will and SaaSLeads.io)[00:00:09.080]
Neil Bhuiyan Hi there, guys, and welcome to a special episode of the SDR DiscoCall Podcast. Today's guest is another SDR trainer by the name of Will Koning and founder of SaaSleads.io In today's session, we're going to be learning about how Will had to go back to being an SDR to launch his own SaaS company, the top traits and skill sets to be a successful SDR and why we both feel the SDR recruitment process is broken.
So how does the SDR DiscoCall Podcast work? Well, it's actually a Discovery Call, hence the name. And every Tuesday at 8am we're going to have a brand new SDR for 30 minutes and an agenda of introductions, their SDR story and three key takeaways that they've learned to share with other SDRs. So with that in mind, let's begin.
So, guys, I want to introduce a special guest today. This is Will Koning, Me and Will have had some previous history when we worked on a training project, I think it was back in 2018.
But as always, rather than me blabbing on about who this person is, I'd love to hear it straight from the person's mouth. So. Will, welcome to The SDR DiscoCall Podcast. How are you doing today, sir?
Will Koning Yeah, really well, thanks, Neil. Thanks for having me.
Neil Bhuiyan No problems. So for the listeners out there that can't see you, could you please give us a little bit about of who you are currently, what you're doing, and kind of like kind of why? Why do you love SDRs, Will?
Will Koning Yeah, sure, so my name Will I'm the founder of SaaSleads.io, we're a Sales development agency / Academy. We have two key missions; one is to be the best sales development company for the outsourcing lead generation in the UK, Europe. And then one day the world and then number two, number two, which is a little bit more close to my heart. I want to be known as the company to work for to launch your SDR career.
So a little bit of just about me behind the scenes. I've been in tech sales for 12, 12 years, I think now started off back in the day taking complaints for Eurostar. I was a uni dropout. I had to work my way up through the ranks from there, spoke a few languages which was my saving grace. And then other than that, I just always been a people person, which is probably how I ended up being in sales, I guess.
Neil Bhuiyan It's a funny way that we all fall into it dude. So for the listeners, so just like a bit of a history lesson.
So when I first started out as a SaaS sales trainer, Will was working at a company called Akroo, I believe at the time back in 2018, we first crossed paths. And funnily enough.
Will, you was Well, you and your fellow colleagues was my first ever class that I did.
Will Koning I didn't even know that.
Neil Bhuiyan Yeah. So I was absolutely sweating buckets back then. But I'm really happy to see.
And I've seen over the years, like through LinkedIn, we've caught up quite a few times that you've really progressed in your career in sales and you've kind of come into the same well, you are in the same field as me. And we obviously spoke through lockdown, giving each other tips and helping each other, giving pep talks and all that to keep morale up. And I'm so proud to see kind of where you've got to and really honored to have you as a guest.
Neil Bhuiyan But obviously, the one thing that I always realized is that we both have that passion for SDRs.
+ Will’s journey into sales [00:03:29.510]
Neil Bhuiyan Um, and before we dive into kind of like what you're currently doing, it'd be really interesting for the listeners to know, kind of like before sales. What was life like? Like what was you doing? Like you mentioned Eurostar. You mentioned, like dropping out of being there as well. What was that journey all about mate?
Will Koning Yeah, I think so. So classic. Sort of 18. I applied for a degree in French and international relations. Luckily I spoke a bit of French I used to live in Belgium and stuff. So I chose I chose that because I didn't want to just be like be a teacher basically where you just do a language, which is what my parents, my mum did. And then, international relations sounded cool, didn't really like that dropped out of uni. And that was in the 2008 recession, actually.
So a really good time to get a job, which I'm sure a lot of SDRs or want to be a SDRs are facing right now, if not worse. But managing to get that job in customer success, basically or customer relations just kind of taught me like I have the ability to do one hundred phone calls a day.
And I did that for no commission. Right. But that that's when I started to realise actually I got a gift of the gab, so to speak.
I've got that energy that actually I now look back and say, hey, that's why I want to get into the B2B side of things and I love technology.
So that's the other thing as well. I was always the technology person working in there. And then I think Classic didn't really have to have a direction because of all that and just trying to make my way in the world. And I guess I started I got a job at Trainline.com. That's when I was like more account management. I thought that's what sales was back in the day right?
I realised pretty quick that actually I was not an account manager. It was a bit too slow paced for me. Started new business for Trainline, which I'm sure they didn't expect me to do, but they quite liked.
But then when I got to Zipcar for business was when I first got into sales, did really well, that that was very transactional.
Basically, My real sales like love got started at Pekbox and I was one of the first sales hires at Perkbox and the first week of sales. After one week of training, I did eight thousand pounds worth of business. You know, you're getting ten percent on that, you know, being known as like this kind of like almost heroic efforts. Right. But that that's where I kind of got known as like the one call closed specialists.
I wasn't afraid, you know, I wasn't afraid. I even had it on a mug, Neil, and it was not good for your ego. I can tell you that much, but we grew that team we were doing, you know, I remember a year later with like 600k worth of business in a month, which is unbelievable, unbelievable growth, pretty hectic, not going to lie. And then so more for family reasons, I ended up I ended up leaving Perkbox just a little bit too hectic and ended up working Akroo, which is where I met you.
And I was there as a senior account executive and I didn't really have any Prospecting skills because this is the thing when marketing give you all these wonderful leads that you can calll and close and that's it.
You think your St-hot actually if you can't Prospect, you're not very good and that that's becoming ever so much clearer now anyway.**
And so I really had to learn, like almost as a senior AE to learn to be an SDR almost straight away. And that's where I ended up going to this event. And this event is probably where this journey for me really started is such an important day for me. When I think backl where it was put on by the founder of InsideSales.com, a guy called Ken Krogue, he was like this acting chairman, like ambassador for the business.
And he put on this like full day's worth of masterclass on how to set up an inside sales or an outbound sales function, and where he introduced to me the concept of the art of sales combined with the science. Right now, that's where you kind of use things like the data points to kind of improve your Outreach, so number of touches, open rates, reply, successes, all of that kind of stuff, which almost seems a bit like, oh, that's pretty standard stuff right now.
But for me, at the time it was like, oh, oh my God, this is amazing. And I think from that point I was hooked and I started trying to do sort of creating more cadence like stuff over at Akroo, but they definitely wanted me focusing on closing deals.
So for revenue based reasons, I can completely understand why. But when I left when I left Akroo, Akroo got sold basically, and I was like, right, what am I going to do now?
I didn't fancy doing another big company. But what I did, I always wanted I always knew that I'd going to start my own business up. And and I thought, ooh, what am I going to do? I'm not a tech guy, I can't code. I can't build a product, having worked in the SaaS. I'm very aware of how challenging that is. And I was like, right. Well, I'd never I remember thinking I'm at the same time some guy pitching me for like outsourced sales and no offense to a lot of outsource sales guys out there.
But at the time I was like, I'll never use an outsourced sales company.
And that's when it was like BING, what if I did it right then?
And then fast forward to sort of end of 2018, which is pretty much after I left Akroo pretty much after I met you, Neil actually wasn't too far off that. I had I had my son, my first clients in the US doing lead generation for them in the UK and Europe. That was really successful. It was just me. That's when I really was a true SDR because I was just doing it for one client.
I really learned the skills of it again and then from there and we were doing really well until Corona hit, and then we had to completely re pivot the model. But in that time of re pivoting the model Neil, I ended up basically losing all but one of my clients, which is a company called Mintago a new sort of H.R. Well-being Solution.
And I came on as the head of sales just to keep things ticking over. Anyone that's followed me recently would have seen me posting a lot about that. And I realized I was like, well, I'm sure as heck not going to do this all on my own.
What do I got? I had one AE, I didn't have any other budget. I was like, right, I'm going to need some SDRs to help me with this, but I'm going to have to get some interns. So I've got some interns on and I'm not a big fan of free labor, frankly. But so I said, look, all things considered, tell you what I'll do, I'll get some interns on, but I'm going to teach and everything I know about sales development and give them the best tools to do so.
+ About SaaSLeads.io [00:10:03.560]
Will Koning So I go out with Sales Training Academy and it turned out to be really successful.
And my little protege, who I absolutely adore, a guy called Ezana and in his second month of SDRing with no experience. He got 99 cold replies, replies from cold emails, 99 less than eight weeks selling and they were like turned into like fifteen, sixteen qualified opportunities you tell me an SDR with two years experience it can do that. So for me it was like right. there's something serious to this. I'm going to do something about it and that's what SaaSleads.io does now.
So our mission like I said, two things. One, to be the best SDR outsourced agency in the UK and then the world. And then the second thing is to be the best company to learn to be an SDR for. I want to get as many people that can't get jobs in the SDR role right now to get jobs in. In the SaaS tech industry, because I know there's a lot of amazing talent out there, so that's me. Yeah,
Neil Bhuiyan I love it, I love it. And that's, again, one of the main reasons that I wanted to get onto the show, because obviously you've got a wealth of experience. You've been through the trenches. You've kind of had to do SDRing, like you say, for your own business. But the fact that you want to help people get into this industry, get into this role, give them support as well, that's something that sings from my heart.
So, again, within the show notes of today's Podcast, there'll be links to reach out to, Will, to his business, kind of what he's doing. I want to help him out, admittedly as well. But I think he can help a lot of listeners out there that are either contemplating the SDR role or kind of wanting to know what is it like before we get into that. And I think, Will, you definitely give a great foundation.
And I think listening to your story, there were some interesting points I wanted to pick up on. So as mentioned, you kind of move from Perkbox into Akroo and you were given that role as, you know, as an account executive. You are there to close business. And you mentioned you had to actually, well, learn how to prospect because you didn't have those skills at that time. And then obviously going out to that conference and meeting that guy and learning all these sort of things for a lot of times when I've gone into, like training SDRs, I've also come across account executives are kind of in the same boat.
+ Prospecting Tips [00:12:16.210]
Neil Bhuiyan And I do it in a kind of roundabout way where I train the SDR to then coach the AE kind of how they should be doing the SDRing. And the only reason I do that is to build the relationship between AE and SDR. But for any AEs that might be listening into this or any SDRs like kind of what tips would you give to the AE that doesn't really have that sort of Prospecting Experience? Where could they start?
Will Koning It's following all the right people and I think it's key to follow the right people on LinkedIn.
To be honest, I would I would certainly tell you to pick a few people to follow, not one hundred people to follow people like John Barrows, for example. You know, you're pretty much going to have a standard level of consistency in his messaging is always consistent throughout. So that would be my first tip. Is number one. Yeah. Dude, own your education right.
Like this is on you. And if anyone in sales, frankly, it's on you to own your education. The second thing is learn from SDR. I mean god, if these guys like I'm certainly in the business of sales enablement.
I now have SDRs in my business that are better than me. Straight up. Why?
Because they are doing it ten, 15 hours a day whilst I'm doing other things, managing my business, yada-non important stuff these guys are. Doing this right now and they're teaching me right now how to sell and and, yeah, the other thing I would say is avoid sales books. And the reason why I say this is. They were written five, 10 years ago. OK, there's some classics out there, definitely I'm not saying poupart them off, but if you want to know strategies for right now, find out what's working now.
And given the fact that we're in a down market, you've got to find out what's working now, not, what, six months ago even, and that's key to making sure that you survive.
Third point, I think, which alludes to it is work as a team. Right. Lean on your team members that are doing this, your product team, making sure you stay up front, making sure you understand your industry pains. Obviously, you should be doing that anyway, but they're the things that come to mind.
Neil Bhuiyan I fully agree with you, dude, and I think I agree with the sales book bit a little bit as well, because I think it was a few years ago when I launched Happy Selling. John Barrows was a huge inspiration to me, like he was my first ever proper sales trainer. And I remember being out in the US at Zuora and this bald guy walks in with a goatee and he's like, you know, being quite brash and he's outspoken swearing and cursing, and I was like, woah, is he allowed to do that?
Will Koning Yeah, I do love him.
Neil Bhuiyan And I remember one day like I'm watching a YouTube video of his in my front living room, like just before I launched Happy Selling. And he was just like saying like, look, there are loads of sales books out there. But to that point, a lot of them are kind of out of date and kind of what reps are doing in the field. That's what's really interesting for him and people like ourselves. And we definitely learn from our students. I always say the mantra of if I'm the smartest guy in the room, I'm in the wrong frigging room.
Neil Bhuiyan You know, I learn from my students, I learn from my customers, and then I pass that knowledge on. And a lot of times when I meet students, or new SDRs for the first time that I know you've been in sales for ten years, you're a bit old school, come on. And I'm like, well, actually what keeps me young is the SDRs of today. What they're doing. I'm constantly loving LinkedIn post from new SDRs and like their strategies and the questions that they're asking.
But going back to John Barrows point is like, I want to make sales for the streets. I don't want someone to have to read a whole hundred and fifty page book to learn all the secrets of success. I kind of want to get this news and information on the streets and keep it there, because that's kind of where we all are at. So again, there are some sales good books out there, I liked Insight Selling. That was one book that really helped me tell customers stories.
The Challenger Sales. I was cool, but when the Challenger Customer came out, it completely well challenged what the first book said a little bit in my in my opinion.
Will Koning Yeah, and also the guys that wrote it, from what I understand I could be wrong, is that they're not actually sales guys themselves, you know, and I think that's a really interesting insight. It's done from a ton of research perspective, which, again, I like the principle of teach, tailer, take control. Don't get me wrong, it makes sense. But the fact of the matter is, it's it's so structured and we know what happens with a good structure the moment it goes into battle or whatever I think mix my analogies here.
But it doesn't necessarily work, right? Yeah. And by speaking to the guys right now, like we did a Podcast like a SaaSleads.io webinar with Aaron Baker so he's the guy right now that's made 400 calls, made a name for himself from Kleene.ai and Greg, like I got him on to be like, how are you doing this right now?
Because you are you are doing this right now. And that's how I'm able to by sharing that knowledge and taking that knowledge to a wonderful industry. We are happy to share. They're now sharing that with my guys on how to sell right now, not yesterday, today.
Neil Bhuiyan And you raise a good point so like people that are currently doing it right now, like you're bringing them into your webinar to share that knowledge and experience that can help others out there. And I was in a class a few weeks ago with some SDRs where we were coming onto the topic of their competitors. And in one of the sessions, they're like, well, they work for X competitor. We need to beat them. We need to crush them.
We need to do that. And I kind of took a stance back and said, you know what, they're in exactly the same boat as you. They're trying to do the same thing. Yes, it's under a different brand and name, but they're fighting for the same cause. So I actually said to them, like, if you ever connect with them on LinkedIn obviously don't share all your trade secrets, but there's no harm in connecting with them.
+ Connecting with other SDRs [00:17:49.100]
Neil Bhuiyan But from your point of view, what are your thoughts on like SDRs from other companies, in essence, could be competitors actually connecting and helping each other out? What do you feel about that?
Will Koning A lot, same time like, just exactly to reiterate your point that they're in there in exactly the same boat that you're in and and actually you're all going up in SaaS Sales, you're going up against the same competitor, which is frankly doing nothing. Right. And most people will decide that they need to unless you're selling something like Zoom.us where you absolutely need it. Right. Because of what's going on around us, the chances are you're a lot of the time you're competing against the cost of the choice, the choice of doing nothing right along.
A decision to make a decision is to not make a decision. Is a decision, right, Sandler rules right? And that that that rings true. And so if there maybe you don't obviously try to trade secrets etc, but maybe have discussions around, well, how are we going to help advance this particular industry?
So like, you know, whether it's like the well being industry, the AI industry. Whatever is, what can you do to collaborate, to help educate the market, which as your SDR as a role, right, to educate, what are you doing to raise, educate, raise awareness and educate the market that actually businesses do need to invest in whatever is remote technology HR tech or whatever?
Neil Bhuiyan Yeah. Whatever solution is helping their customer right?
Will Koning Yeah. And that is something you can most certainly collaborate on and. Yeah, because at the end of the day, your biggest competitor still is doing nothing.
+ Returning to be an SDR to launch SaaSLeads.io [00:19:22.180]
Neil Bhuiyan Yeah, whole-heartedly-agree man. And I think another bit like with your story that I loved for the listeners out there, so obviously we have SDRs that are either in the role or the currently about to go into that role. You mentioned that, you know, setting up your own business, you had to go back into SDR mode. You had to kind of do it for yourself to build up your own leads, build up your own company. What learning curves did that did that, well, took place like, being, having to being an SDR yourself, time management. It is the same thing for every good SDR in the world is like time management, my best SDRs a better at time management, anything else?
Time management is unbelievably crucial. It's boring and it's crucial.
Neil Bhuiyan So if I'm a brand new SDR and this is the first time I've heard the word time management, what would how would you explain what time management to them is and why it's important?
Will Koning So especially when. We're in a very tough down market right now. That means you have to put in an incredible amount of effort to get the results you need. And even in a good time, you still need to put a certain amount of effort to get a certain amount of results back. And the data that you will one day see will prove that so and they will be broken down in reality into four tasks when we when we when we cut through it, calling, emailing, social touches and then the research from Prospecting.
So I've done that backwards. Research and then Prospecting, first.
But they are primarily the four things that you do as an SDR. And I know there's lots of things we can add to that. But you need. You must. Carve out time for that, and I wouldn't advise if you think I'm going to 100 calls a day or 200 calls today I think initially to begin with, I would say I'm going to carve out doing two hours of calling a day every day. At the same time, I'm going to carve out doing two hours of emails every day at the same time.
Now, that might not always be practical for timezone reasons or whatever, but by structuring your day militantly.
Right. And understanding how much effort it takes for you, what can you do? And focusing on those one task in that one period of time, that's where you are going to be able to get the most accurate set of baseline metrics in order for you to understand what you really need to do to attain your objectives in for your quarter.
Neil Bhuiyan You said it beautifully, my dude, and I think it's a case of consistency is key and as you mentioned, it may not be practical or you’re not being able to get those things done in that certain day.
And I think it's always good to have a good template to your calendars, this is what your intention is to try and get done in that week. And I think what I've seen really work well is where SDRs speak to other SDRs, that been in that company for a little longer and said, look, this is how I'm looking to run my calendar. What do you think? And then that other SDR or AE can kind of set that's realistic or I didn't even think of that.
+ Taking time out to reflect on your day [00:22:23.030]
Neil Bhuiyan But I think what's really good is I did this with the current student of mine, Amber, she she kind of did her template for the week. And I said, do you know what, run with it for four weeks. The I think the only thing that you're missing is maybe having a reflection block at the end of each day or at the end of each week to see, OK, what got done, what didn't get done and why and what needs to change. And then you can create that nice rhythm for yourself.
Will Koning That's a really good point about being reflective. In fact, I just did a webinar with a good friend of mine, Chris, for my team today, and he talks about stoicism. And that is a lot of about building resilience. And he said a really practical tip is to build resilience. And and those things that we need to have is by being reflective. And every morning what he said he does, he takes three objectives. And he asks himself are these three objectives going to help me make my boat go faster?
That's the first thing. Then the second thing, he does it. The second thing at the end of that day, what he does, he carves at that time and he doesn't, he doesn't show off about it, he doesn't tell anyone about it, doesn't even tell his partner about it, he said he might tell his dog, but in that period that he every day he carves out that reflective time to be stoic.
Did those objectives actually help him make his boat go faster, yes or no? If Yes, I'm going to do that again, if no, I'm going to change my objectives for the next day. And he says if you do that religiously, not only will we get better at achieving your actual measurable quantitive objectives because you start to sort of build on those qualitative attributes that is required of an SDR. So being resilient, right.
Having that that mindset to keep going and again, especially because we are in the toughest sales climate right now, you have to be resilient. You have to be that. You have to be saying, right. If I know I'm going to book five meetings by doing one hundred calls, I mean, I'd love to be that SDR, to be honest right now, but I need to book 15, then I'm going to have to make three hundred calls a day. Right.
But to do that I have to have that resilience, I have to have that, that stoicism.
Which then leads to your point. I have to be reflective every day.
Neil Bhuiyan Agreed, I think it's just like with any sort of artist or craftsman like you got a look at your work and take a step back from it to look at the bigger picture. So I love those points. And definitely, guys, that's going in the show notes. So make sure you've got that quoted from Will. I love it.
Will Koning And I've taken it from someone else we're all saying things,
Neil Bhuiyan like you said, your a curator, curator of great education and content
Will Koning It's amazing content out there from amazing people that are better than me and I probably Neil will say about himself, like some amazing people out there follow those that are doing it right now.
+ Who should you listen to as a new SDR? [00:25:07.670]
Neil Bhuiyan Definitely and I think that's probably I think is one of the questions I get a lot from good students is like they always ask me, what should I listen to? And I said, you know what? There's a lot of stuff that I could listen to or read upon. But I think the people that are currently in your company, they're going to be the best people to. So I think when I was working at Intuo in the HR space similar to yourself, like with Mintago and always say to the speak to customer success because they like the thought leaders in the HR space and they'd always talk about John Bersin.
They'd talk about industry leaders. These are the LinkedIn groups that they're following because again, it's great to be knowledgeable in your product, but really know your industry, know kind of like why people care about these subjects and to the personas, yeah, exactly that
Will Koning And because especially as an SDR, you can get caught, you can get caught in what they call the curse of knowledge. Right. Because you end up having this conversation about how your product works and all the million features that you've got, you've certainly given your your person that your Prospects all the information that they think they have and you haven't done your job, which is qualify them and put a Discovery Call with your account executive.
So you should actually prioritize your industry challenges and pains that your Prospects are facing way over your product knowledge. And I think that's where a lot of leaders and sales leaders go wrong and say, OK, who is our product feature training go sort it out, that is actually so backwards.
You learn about how to sell, first of all, the why of selling, then go learn about your industry pains and challenges that your Prospects face, and then go and apply that to how, you know, whoever you're working for actually goes about solving them and almost play the play dumb when you don't know how it works because that's how you use it. Oh, that's interesting. Why do you want to know that? And then it's like go book a meeting with the AE to get that question answered.
Neil Bhuiyan I love it. As as you've said that out loud, it's just made me think something that's in essence kind of what like you Prospects going through. So they go through that pain and figure out why are we having this issue, why are we having this problem? And then they go research in the industry or their peers, like who else is going through this problem? How are you guys solving it? And then they come to a solution at the end of, ah OK, this is something that can fix that problem. But to your point, as an SDR, stay hungry, in essence, like you said, kind of play dumb, just like, oh, well, why do you need that to work for you? And what would be the impact of that helping you guys out? That's a great way to learn.
+ Top traits for becoming a successful SDR [00:27:34.040]
Neil Bhuiyan Well, yeah, um, and in terms of like you were mentioning, there is kind of like one of the traits for great SDRs is resilience. Obviously we're in the world where we're having recruitment agencies and companies trying to help SDRs and place them in. Um, obviously you're in the business of trying to get SDRs into jobs. What would you say are like really good traits and kind of why are these traits important for future SDRs?
Will Koning So in the academy we actually have one of the one of the subjects is what are the attitudes and behaviours of an SDR? And we actually teach teachers before we even talk about about products. Right. And and that kind of thing. So it's things like the obvious one for me is curiosity. Right? You've got to demonstrate that you are genuinely interested in life and stuff. And how does that work? Why is that important? Which makes sense, meaning about discovery.
But it also makes you a better sales student, in my opinion as well, like my my best students or in the academy that always the ones asking me questions. Right. So curiosity is is arguably for me, the number one. Attribute, I say number one. Yes, but then goes back to the organization and time management, right. The best the best SDRs are for organizational skills, time management. If you're not going to get good at it, it's not an option, frankly.
But the fact is we have calendar apps that can make it happen these days, so use technology to back yourselves up.
Like, I think there's sort of the more kind of more qualitative ones, like genuinely being like a helpful person. Right. A lot of these Prospects especially depends where you're outbounding or inbounding SDRing, but ultimately your job is to to help them, to guide them through. So coming across is helpful is super important. And just generally being that helpful thing for me is, you know, I want to be nice people as well.
We're consultative sales people. I'm here to help. It's just me. Great customer experience. Right? What else is really important without looking at my slides?
I think it's that resilience as well. I mean, that's something that we can all develop and we should all continue to develop as well. So I think I think that for me is is probably up there that you just have to I mean, like I say, if you're not being told to f off once or twice a week, then you're probably not doing your job right. You've got to be able you've got to be able to kind of develop that thick skin, especially right now that kind of leads into the hunger.
Will Koning We don't want to, chance chances, don't want to be an SDR all your life. You know I get, you've got to be hungry enough to want to succeed into, like, the AE role. If you want to go marketing, it's a great entry level, I think, for any kind of commercial part of a SaaS function.
Neil Bhuiyan Yeah,
Will Koning but it's having that hunger, but it's also having that kind of humility to say actually it's not about how do I get promoted, it's how do I master the role of an SDR, so that I can be successful AE and having the patience to know that she got to do two years of this stuff to really do that, whether you like it or not. So there's a lot of attributes in all of that kind of stuff. And I think you could put them all in one kind of box for an SDR.
+ The importance of well being [00:31:00.060]
Will Koning The one thing that I wish I practiced more of back in the day was like mindfulness and wellbeing.
Neil Bhuiyan And why is that?
Will Koning So sales is inherently stressful for anyone that's been in the game longer than ten minutes will know that, like inherently stressful.
And frankly, there's life out life, there is life outside of sales. And I wish I knew that five, 10 years ago or whatever right, I am I'm someone that's probably quite energetic and stuff and and I really took this stuff to heart and and actually I've learned over time there is life outside of sales, but it can very much creep into your day to day life. And frankly, actually, anyone outside of sales doesn't really care.
So so you've got to what you've got to do is you've got to, number one, separate your work life from your home life.
But to do that, to do that, you have to prioritize, in my opinion. You have to prioritize your wellbeing.
Neil Bhuiyan Yeah.
Will Koning Because if you don't go prioritise your wellbeing, you will try and get on with your other life by, like, probably drinking through it, which is probably like a lot of salespeople, guilty have done, and I think because of the lockdown thing, I've had to kind of really kind of re-evaluate how I'm doing.
My my personal life, the wellbeing, mindfulness meditation, all of that kind of stuff is is key to your success. Like a whole breadth of personal life, you know what I mean, right?
Neil Bhuiyan Yeah, yeah,
Will Koning that that you have to prioritize that. And I think that goes for anyone in any career, frankly. But prioritizing your well-being. I fundamentally believe will make you an excellent SDR and an excellent all round human being.
Neil Bhuiyan I believe that I live it, I breathe it, and it's something that I say to a lot of students, so people that are listening in like a mantra that I have even with my own team at Happy Selling is your health comes first, family comes second and then thirdly, that's when works comes in or anything to do with Happy Selling.
And I do it with my own employees, you know, and I stress this to SDR students. Like, look, to your point. Will, there is a life outside of sales, sales is only a part of your life. It's something to do with, I would say, more than just a job. It's your career. It's kind of where you want to go. But in order to have longevity in the career, you've got to look after yourself, you know,
Will Koning but that is real guys, trust me
Neil Bhuiyan Yeah. Yeah. To be open and transparent. I've burnt out twice in my life and it's been a while since I was in sales companies and happy to say I've made it through dark times and we're here and we're having this discussion today. But I see it happen a lot with people that I work with on a personal level or kind of like through Happy Selling.
Neil Bhuiyan And I was really grateful, like during lock down, like you mean we were both going through some tough times as well and we were able to chat and just being able to speak to somebody, I think that's important as well. But if you don't find that in your work, then there's always professional people out there like speak to GPs, speak to families like don't sit in silence.
Will Koning And I would you know, I'm not going to share my details. Anyone is having a tough time I know, Neil is someone that you can message. I'm also one of those people.
And and I think anyone that says that the chances are, because they've been for it themselves and they know,
Neil Bhuiyan yeah, we're all human, we all go through similar journeys in life. And I think that's why, like with me and yourself, we are very passionate about SDRs, because it is, like you said, the entry level for some a lot of people that starting out this career.
+ Recruitment: The good, the bad and the ugly [00:34:41.640]
Neil Bhuiyan And I think to give some guys some support, which kind of brings me on to the next topic, something that we discussed during LinkedIn.
And it was kind of something that got on my goat a little bit.
Will Koning Yeah.
Neil Bhuiyan And it's kind of in relation to like recruitment with SDRs. I understand I've got a lot of friends. I've got a lot of SDRs that were recruiters and I totally understand the space as well. But most recently on LinkedIn like during lockdown with things going up and people looking to hire, I'm not going to mention any names per say, but I've seen a lot of recruiters where they're kind of pitching a service towards like VPs of sales, CMOS's heads of businesses about how they will find the best talent.
They'll take them through their process, their training, and they'll put them in to the best positions in companies and make those companies really profitable. And in essence, Will, I think kind of what I said to you is it kind of feels like their treating SDRs like a cattle market, you know, like a prized market where I couldn't really care less whether I'm pitching to the business owner. I really want to get in with the SDRs and I care about them.
But I know that you have your own opinion on this. I would love you to kind of like get your take on it as well.
Will Koning So so I think there's there's a couple of things that the SDR Hiring Model, the recruitment model is is frankly broken. There are a few companies that are doing these assessment days and they that's when they say they train them and they have ten, fifteen, twenty people to come on to these training days.
Assessment days, for those that can't see I'm doing air quotes and there is no way, as someone that is now trained quite a few SDRs now, there is no way that you can get a fair assessment of an SDR and their capabilities in one day.
And now this is becoming especially true that now we're having to this all via Zoom. I know a very I know I speak to candidates.
I've been through this process and they've been through this process recently and they are forced to go into this route and then they're not allowed to talk to other recruiters, which is wrong. They are then told they are then told that they need to perform on a Zoom Call in front of seventeen other SDRs. Could you imagine that what that's like.
Neil Bhuiyan That'll be scary, dude.
Will Koning It's scary, but it's also nuts and it's nuts for the Hirer.
You're going to, and the other thing is that you're going to bring on the person that you're going to bring onto your business is the SDR who shouts loudest. I'm sorry, that's not that's not what good SDRs do good SDRs are thoughtful, careful to considerate, as we've talked about, they do not shout loud as they listen. That's wrong, right. So how are these people and I know I've talked to people going for this is not a nice experience. And then on the back end, they left with nothing.
And right now, because the situation were in and it's really tough and I genuinely feel awful for them because they have to jump through hoops in order to get that
It doesn't create a good experience and impression for SDRs looking to break into the industry, not that they'll get look in at this point anyway because they haven't got one to experience, which is another thing that winds me up. It doesn't provide a good experience for the SaaS hiring company that is spending an inordinate amount of money. So it's typically around like £8-10k to place these guys. That's insane amount of money. And then they're saying, oh, we train them and then they're saying that, yeah, this is a good thing.
You're not solving the challenges that VPs of sales are facing, which is a SDR ramp up. You still got three months of ramp up. You're not training them on how to sell. Right.
Will Koning You just you just running them through, like you say, a bit of a farm. And for me for me, that's one of the reasons why I started SaaSleads.io and is to solve those two things. It's like number one, one is actually to give like for all intents purposes, just for clarity, these guys are going to come and work with me for three months. I want to bring them on. I'm going to train them up to sell. I'm going to train them up to use the best technology.
I'm going to train. I'm going to give them the skills and the confidence that they need that they can walk into an interview at a top tier SaaS company and actually nail an interview. And I will not do it.
I will not do a group Zoom Call I will give the SDR the time of day to prove how good they are, because that's how they going to perform in front of your clients, the Prospects clients, and they're going to get the feedback that they deserve and the support that they deserve to get them the job that they are perfectly adequate to do and will be better than those that go through that process because they are trained and it's about treating its about treating them fairly and giving them the skills and the enabling that they need to be awesome.
Neil Bhuiyan But it's also about treating the SaaS hiring companies fairly as well and saying and giving them actual consultation. That's backed by data. That's backed by proof over a period of months. To say, actually, these guys are going to be an awesome culture fit for your company and they're going to be the future sales leaders. So, yeah, that's what I'm about.
And I love the passion man. And that's just the thing. Like when obviously sifting through LinkedIn and I'm seeing these type of posts, I'm just like, they're not cattle, they're not assets, they're not something to just provide ROI they're humans, they're people. And I've seen it on the other flipside where, SDRs have been through this kind of process and they have brought me in to kind of help out. And I've just asking kind of like, what did you go through?What did you learn?
And at the same time I write, I've seen some of these materials and I think, do you know, what is really good that you're giving these fundamentals and table stakes to help out the SDRs. But it's that that love that you need to give these guys, because for a company and a business, if you have a bad hire and after three months they're not productive and they're not really loving their job or kind of understanding what the hell they've been hired to do that job, you could lose them and that could impact you by of the equation of that comes out to like three people's worth of salary for every bad hire that you take on board.
Will Koning You want to align your culture with the values of the organization. And if you've got a recruitment company you're working for, that isn't culturally aligned, that's fundamentally a problem.
Neil Bhuiyan Yeah. So if we have any SDRs that are kind of going through that process and again, we're not saying that this is for all recruiters, we're not saying that this is like, you know, the thing that's kind of storming the market and like, oh, like, you know, it's not going, what I'm trying to say is that we're not coming to judgment day with this right now. There are some good recruitment companies. There are some good recruiters that do a good process.
Will Koning There are I work with some great recruiters just to be fair, I'm paired with some great recruiters, but they're not the ones that run them through a farm. Tell them that much or a training day.
+ Advice for SDRs currently looking for new roles [00:41:25.300]
Neil Bhuiyan Yeah, and if we're thinking for the SDR listeners out there, if they're kind of contemplating that that journey or they're currently in that process, what advice would you give to these guys if they're going through those motions right now?
Will Koning Yeah, you know, it's very similar advice that you also you should to actually ask of your hiring company that you're working for is making sure that it's like, well, what am I actually going to get out of the process? And what were sort of things that I need to sort of do to to make myself successful and all of those kind of basics, I guess. But I think I think I would be very wary of a company, any any firm that's telling you you can't deviate from that process and you must stick with them because they certainly don't have your best interests at heart.
That's something that you should be very, very wary of for sure.
I think I think it's almost like the same kind of questions you'd ask a hiring manager in the sense of how are you going to train me? How are you going to enable me to be excellent? And you should ask the same of any company saying, hey, we're going to do a training day. It's like, well, what am I going to get out of that training day? That's going to make me excellent. Right. That's going to give me that competitive edge.
And I suspect you ask those type of tough kind of questions. You probably won't get the answers that you need. The industry needs shaking up Neil.
I don't really have a view, I think that's how I'm dealing with it as it's like, Let's go shake the industry.
Neil Bhuiyan Well, you know, I agree and I think, like where, you know, you've gone through that SaaS journey of working at SaaS companies. You've had to learn to SDR. You've kind of seen where there's a gap. You've created your own company. You're still having to be an SDR for that company. You're enabling new SDRs. You're helping them find jobs. That's how you disrupt the market. And I think for a lot of SDRs that are listening into this. The one advice that I always give is don't just see yourself as an SDR, but you could be the CEO of your own company.
You define your success and your destiny by what you're learning today. Like years ago, 10 years ago, when a VP of sales said to me, like, why did you join this company? I said, because one day I want to be a CEO of my own company. I don't know how I'm going to do that or how the hell I'm going to get there, but I know it's going to happen. And I said the only way I'm going to learn is if I start right here right now.
So, yeah, to your point, it's how much of a company is going to invest in you, you know, like for your personal development, for your career. These are questions I was always asking my manager, like, can I go into a management course? Can I go watch winning by design? Could we get them in? And then I think that that's the thing. The power is not in the hands of the recruiters or the heads of companies.
It's the young talent, which is the SDRs that are on the front line talking about why they want to change the world in the businesses that they are in and they have the power to change like you me, Will, we've been in SDRs. We've worked for companies that have literally changed the competitive landscape and we've been a part in that. And I think that's beautiful. And that's why I love SDRs and like the world of SDRs. So, yeah, we need to help them out.
And you and me, we are doing nothing in that course. And I think, yeah, we this is a message out there to like, yeah, things are going to get shaken up, things are going to get disrupted.
Will Koning The world is changing whether we like it or not, and for obvious reasons. Right. And and I think one of the best pieces of advice that I got given was actually by my dad. And he said, look, 20s, when you just start your career is not about earning the money. Right. Don't think about the money. Think about your proverbial rucksack of life. Right. And that's what you wear on your back every day.
And what you want to do is fill it with quality tools that are going to enable you to be awesome and then in your 30s, start making some money. I'm 33, so I better start doing that bit.
You know, I like the fact I get to help people, I guess. But it's, that for me to this day still rings true. You know, focus on the skills that you can learn. Don't worry about the money right now. Focus on skills. And so the money comes right.
It does come, you know. Yeah. And there's more important things than money thing.
Neil Bhuiyan Yeah. So I agree. I think if you're happy and you're able to learn those skills and execute it, then the money will be a byproduct of your success. It's not the reason for your success, you know. Yeah. And there's some great words of advice from your dad, mate So to kind of bring this, this has been a great show and I think definitely we're going to be having you back on, in the future, I'm really interested to know what's going on with SaaSLeads.io s as well.
Will Koning You can come on mine as well. Neil!
+ Will’s key takeaways [00:46:01.520]
Neil Bhuiyan I'm down for that. Yeah. But, um, to kind of like thinking about the great journey that you've had over the last decade. If you were talking to a younger Will, who's just about to embark on his journey for SaaS and being an SDR what three key bits of advice would you love to give him?
Will Koning Uh, go back to the well being straight up. Honestly, it's before you worry about your job, focus on yourself and love yourself and your wellbeing. That's that's number one. Number two, try to do one to three things really, really well, rather than try to do 10 things, half-ars*dly, I think focus and just being excellent at one thing, execute those basics exceptionally well. You'll go far. And then number three, number three, I would say keep have that fun that I had and have in life.
And that's not a it's not. I like what I do differently now. What would I keep the same?
I'm going to slightly change the question here, keep my happy go lucky spirit that I seem to have that energy that seems to be infectious like but like seriously like that for me. I've had so many poupart me because of my attitude and that. And now I look back and it's like. Yeah man, I'm so glad I did that, you know, here I am. I've got I've got a team of people that I adore that are helping in this journey, and I don't think I'd be where I am today.
So don't get too serious too quickly.
Neil Bhuiyan And they'll be asking you a lot. Will, are you happy all the time?
Will Koning No.
Neil Bhuiyan Yeah exactly. I say 90 percent of the time I'm happy. And there are days which I'm down. There are days where I'm pi*sed off.
Will Koning Yeah.
Neil Bhuiyan And it's just been natural. But if I choose the path of happiness and positivity, that's a choice I want to make, because the impact it has,
Will Koning even when it is down, I choose to make a positive step.
And I think not necessarily choose to be happy, but I choose to make the right steps in the right direction. Definitely choices key.
Neil Bhuiyan Perfect, perfect.
So for the listeners out there, if they want to kind of get to know Will a bit better, kind of like what's the best way to get in contact with you? Are there any things that we should be keeping an eye on for SaaSleads.io
Will Koning yeah, think so. Yeah. So follow, follow me Will Koning. We're going to start doing more stuff around on SaaSleads.io so follow us on LinkedIn.
Mainly I've actually deleted all my other social networks because of that social media thing that came out the other day on Netflix. So LinkedIn is the only place I'm at really for for that reason. And then yeah I think just two things really. If you are an aspiring SDR like genuinely, if you can come and work for us for three months, we will get you an awesome job in it's top tier SaaS company that is happening right now, which I'm delighted to say you will learn everything we need.
And then two, from like from like a more of like a personal well-being perspective.
As I mentioned, just DM, I can share small stories. I love a chit chat, so I'm always open for that. And yeah, that's I guess that's it really, Neil
Neil Bhuiyan Yeah. Well I just wanted to say thank you so much for being a guest. I really look forward to having you back on as a future guest. And really I'm going to be watching and I have been watching you from Day dot mate to kind of see how things progress. And I wish you all the best of luck. And most importantly, Happy Selling
Will Koning HappySelling indeed cheers, Neil.